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Rafi Simonton's avatar

As a blue collar rank and file union activist for 28 years, let me assure you wondering about these topics is wide-spread. While crew in ship engine rooms, I've participated in conversations about scientific assumptions of reductionism, economic materialism, and metaphysical topics in general. We just tended to use the "f" word much more than is usually the case among academics.

Because of a series of intense mystical encounters and other experiences of what I call high weirdness, I became one of Jeff Kripal's correspondents. I've also been in Facebook discussions with Bernardo Kastrup. I own books by close to all of the writers you mentioned. Incidentally, re-reading Wilbur closely became off-putting. He seems to me too sure and a bit of an elitist.

As for "bootstrapping," conservatives and capitalists misuse "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps." It wasn't admonishment about personal responsibility and individual hard work as all that are needed to become successful, but just the opposite--try it! It meant we need each other and was acknowledgement of the reality of structural inequalities.

At 77, a two-spirit and elder, I can say with confidence I know less at this age than I did in my 40s-50s. If forced to pick, I'd opt for panentheism. Maybe dual aspect monism, but it's not quite persuasive. Pantheism seems too close to a form of materialism. It also has the problem of explaining how greater consciousnesses would arise; clearly parrots are more self-aware than pebbles. Therefore not solving David Chalmer's Hard Problem, either. Nor does the New Age talk about energies; I get that's a metaphor for some(thing) we can't quite grasp, but since matter and energy are interchangeable forms, that's another non-solution.

Because of my encounters I decided, despite being raised without religion, to go to grad school in theology in my 50s--maybe the trad religions had some truth to them. Maybe they do. But for me, it was a Procrustean bargain and I couldn't remove enough of myself to fit. Moreover, using the term "God" makes it seem we understand what we're talking about. No way can finite minds, even if pieces of or participants in a whole Mind, fully know an Entity spread across the cosmos and perhaps beyond. Besides, the Christian insistence "God" is all good is a mess. Evil then has to be blamed on some other entity or on humans. Which means whether "God" is a poor designer, not omniscient, or okay with what that bad entity does, She/He/ Them/It is still responsible. Look at black holes and supernovas; destruction (evil?) from the beginning. Even if organizing centers for galaxies and the source of elements heavier than iron we living beings need, any other living beings too close to either are killed. So...??? But I think Carl Jung was onto something with Answer to Job and The Red Book. And I think linking consciousness to time but not to space is worth some contemplation.

One last point. The idea "we" will not survive. Reminds me of a joke I heard in the '60s from a Native reservation relative about the '50s TV show The Lone Ranger. The Lone Ranger and Tonto, his Native sidekick, are surrounded by what appear to be hostile (Red to you Brits) Indians. The Lone Ranger says "We have to fight them, Tonto!" To which Tonto replies "What's this 'we', white man?!" Some of us Indigenes never lost the connection to Earth Mother and to the spirits of animals and plants. Look at the health of our environments. It wasn't because of intellectual inferiority, technological ignorance, or an inability to understand empirical data. It was a deliberate choice.

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Running Rob's avatar

Hi Jonathon ... You wrote: peace?” I looked at some of the heterodox but peer-reviewed research from 1988, indicating that having large groups of meditators near a conflict zone might help reduce conflict - the theory of change was effectively a theory that conflict arose from collective stress, and the presence of advanced (Sidhi) meditators could reduce stress in a sufficiently reliable way that there would be a measurdable reduction in conflict. I then extrapolated to the relationship between consciousness and peace more generally, including a nod to The Global Consciousness Project, ...

I was one of around 200 (alleged ) 100 UK and 100 US "Advanced (We had advanced a lot of money 🤦‍♂️) TM Siddhi Meditatirs" who sat in "close proximity" (in hotels) to a specific conflict (The Fall of the Shah in Teheran) and meditated 6 hours a day in hotels ... 1978-79 in Teheran.

In hindsight it feels like a form of service to something larger than oneself ...

Just for the record

I appreciated the essay enormously Bohm floats my boat and you brought many new voices to scan under my radar THANK YOU. Loved the numbered building aha's 👏👏

🙏💙🙏

Rob R³ Running, Rambling, Rob

My personal favourite Bohm quote is:

Reality is what we take to be true.

What we take to be true is what we believe.

What we believe is based on our perceptions.

What we perceive depends on what we look for.

What we look for depends on what we think.

What we think depends on what we perceive.

What we perceive determines what we believe.

What we believe determines what we take to be true.

What we take to be true is our reality.

.... David Bohm

I first encountered the poem / quote in the Epilogue of Perfect Brilliant Stillness by David Carse* on p380. It took me nearly ten years to find a source ...

Quote: In considering the constructed nature of reality, Ricard quotes from a 1977 Berkeley lecture by David Bohm (December 20, 1917–October 27, 1992), in which the trailblazing theoretical physicist offered an exquisite formulation of the interplay between our beliefs and what we experience as reality:

See: https://www.themarginalian.org/2015/09/22/the-quantum-and-the-lotus-riccard-david-bohm-reality/

I tried to explore the Bohm Bohm further

My diagrammatic attempts at unpacking, which I think I shared before are at ...

https://lifebeinglife.wordpress.com/2020/08/16/search-results-and-bohm-maps/

(Originally posted

16 August 2020)

If you scroll down there are four crude maps and an attempt to address the dynamic (trinity) at the heart of the quote / poem

Descending from Reality into our experience creating mechanism where the three way interaction between: (a) perceptions (b) what we look for, and (c) what we think, generates our unique personal history in memory (a) affects (b) affects (c) affects (a) in a dance of perpetual re-inforcement and feedback loops. Then depending on our dominant inner tendencies, ascends in the last three lines leads to the projection of our inner sense making, onto the external world as encountered by the individual interacting with the Actual.

[Note added: 2025-12-16, maybe!]

****

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